FWIS 2.0

[Ikyoto]

I agree that two blocks is sufficient distance, but the media needs it's chum.
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異教徒
My ignorance is exceeded only by my lack of knowledge.

[FZR1KG]

911 was a psychological attack on the USA far more than a physical one. Ground zero for the physical attack was small, ground zero for the psychological attack was far larger. The CBD and even some of the inner areas would be considered ground zero. According to the terrorists IIRC they targeted NY for its corruption/power and the trade towers were the obvious candidates.

Personally I've already stated my opinion on this. I don't like it. If they want to do something, then make it a community centre but don't make it glare out of Muslim/Islamic architecture.

But here's the thing that really bugs me about it. It doesn't take much more than a half wit to work out that a great many people will be hurt by this mosque being built. If that is their idea of uniting ties between Americans and Muslims then either they are retards or they are lying as to the purpose of the building. This is dividing the community, not the Muslim-American community but the American community itself.

Having seen enough of pshyco games by nutty governments and fanatics this one rings true to all my alarm bells regarding their motivations.

Summing it up:
1) Lots of Americans upset, obvious as its already happened with just the proposal.
2) Lots of radical Muslims cheering in foreign countries because they will not appreciate the fact that before 911 this wouldn't have been a problem. View it from their perspective and what Christians can do in their country.

I see no gain from it and lots of problems. So all I see is a mess coming.
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It's not the speed that kills, its the sudden stop

[FZR1KG]

[jlj]

Welcome to lower Manhattan fellas

[FZR1KG]

Free pork rib appetizers would be nice
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It's not the speed that kills, its the sudden stop

[gethen]

Apparently that gay nightclub might not be such a big deal. It seems there are several bars (one popular with lesbians), porn shops, and other such businesses already located within 2 or 3 blocks of that "hallowed ground." And no one seems to have complained about those in the post-9/11 years when they were established. link here
So the gay club might not even be noticed.
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God's away on business. Tom Waits

[Ikyoto]

I say let them build where they want, then let the public treat the site the way they want after they see what the real purpose is. If it is a mosque, it won't last a week. If it is a cross culture center where EVERYONE is welcome, it might do some good.
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異教徒
My ignorance is exceeded only by my lack of knowledge.

[jlj]

I think that it was more of the catering to the gay male muslim population part that was the big deal with virgin drinks and all that. You correctly note that there are lots of gay bars in Manhattan, all within stumbling distance of WTC. There are also (although not as many) mosques in Manhattan (dozens?).

But, this seems like a bad business move since, as Mr. Achmedouchebag points out, there are no homosexuals in Iran. Seems like a big factor to ignore.

[Ikyoto]

[mike alexander]

Actually, Ahminajihad is well-known in Iranian inner circles to be gay. He's just doing the J Edgar to divert attention.
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Hitch a ride to the end of the highway
where the neon turns to wood...

[jlj]

Being alive is an important characteristic of a bar patron, in most cases.

[jlj]

That's the name of that tune. BRAVO

[gethen]

And I would guess that the right wingers accusing Obama of being a closet Muslim are having a similarly negative effect on the way the Islamic world views American "tolerance." If we are screaming because we suspect our own duly elected President might be a Muslim, how much less respect might we have for Muslims on the other side of the world?

And according to a segment on CNN yesterday, there is already a mosque within 4-5 blocks of Ground Zero and there have been no protests about that in the many years it's been there, even immediately after 9/11. Is there some formula that dictates the correct distance, or is it just new construction that's unwanted? (I'm not being ironic here, I'm really wondering what the difference is and why.)
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God's away on business. Tom Waits

[Yosh]

None of this falls in the realm of logic, but pure emotion. Please note the Papal direction to Carmelite Nuns in 1993 who had taken up residence at Auschwitz.
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"I drank what?!?"

Socrates' last words.....

[jlj]

[SciFiFisher]

[Gullible Jones]

So... Does the government specifically prohibit the building of the mosque, and forget about the other religious centers that were planned? Or does it just block the whole thing because of the mosque? And wouldn't it be violating the Constitution either way?

Also, there's a potential flaw in the above post that I have to point out: you make a statement about Islam atoning for its crimes. But crimes have been committed in the name of many, many religions. Would you extend that statement to other religions? e.g. has Christianity by now atoned for the crimes committed in its name? How about Hinduism? Are/were other religions obligated to do so?

(Mind, I'd personally say that the obligation to atone belongs to the people who commit the crime, not every single follower of the religion, no matter what religion we're talking about. Even in cults like Scientology that are designed to cause harm, you have some people who are guilty of crimes, and some... who were just followers. But to each his own, I guess.)

[FZR1KG]

Look at it this way.
Imagine a someone who murdered your children, parents etc and died doing so.
His family decides they want to build their house near where the killings took place in an effort to bring people closer and ask for your input.
Then you say you don't want it. Some of your relatives say they don't care.

The murderers family use those who don't care as if its OK.

The ones that aren't going to be emotionally distressed are not the ones whose input they should be interested in if their proposal was honest. Its the ones that they will be upsetting that is the correct opinion to consider if they were doing it with noble intentions.

IMHO they should not have asked and just built it or ask and if anyone objected then not go through with it.
By asking, getting controversy and still building it they are now dismissing duress that they are putting some through. They are seeing this as a public debate since they are constantly refusing to acknowledge that they will upset some people. Getting on TV, in the news and telling people how they have some families of victims approval and arguing why they should build. Thats is the behavior of a political stunt designed to cause debate and thats exactly what they are doing.
Old saying, don't piss on my back and tell me its raining. That pretty much sums up what I see going on here.
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It's not the speed that kills, its the sudden stop

[SciFi Chick]

Here's a real life example.

We used to have these neighbors that liked to party. They came over shortly after they moved in and said that they didn't want to disturb us, and if they were ever too loud, to just let them know and they would be quieter.

One night, at around 3:00AM, they woke us up with their music. FZ went next door and asked them to turn it down as he was going to work the next day. They did.

He came home. They turned it up even louder than before.

Basically, it was a big fuck you to us. And I feel the same way about the people behind this center.

Religion is not the issue for me. Human decency and kindness is.

It's been pointed out that there were no protests about the other mosques built in the area. I'm pretty certain there wouldn't have been protests about this one if they hadn't sought the publicity. While there are extremists reacting in ways that are not acceptable, it does not negate the fact that the American public has been offered a lose lose proposition with this request.
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"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Philip K. Dick

"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner." James Bovard

[mike alexander]

I'm part of the American public and I don't feel a win, or a lose, or much anything else.

And I just discovered a terrible, horrible thing. Do you know what they are doing at Ground Zero? They are building a gigantic office tower there! Yes! A monument, not to the remains in that sacred ground, but fifteen hundred feet of vertical crass commercialism! Not ten blocks away, not two blocks away, but right on the very sacred earth itself! :eviL:

What's next? A floating hotel in Pearl Harbor over the USS Arizona?

Who is financing this atrocity? Who will be grinning at the piles of lucre erected on the ashes of the sanctified? Who finds it impossible to set aside a couple of acres for eternal remembrance because the land is too valuable to just sit there, sacreding? HOW CAN AMERICANS STAND FOR THIS VIOLATION? OH, THE HUMANITY!
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Hitch a ride to the end of the highway
where the neon turns to wood...

[FZR1KG]

Its not the building of anything that is the problem, its the asking for approval to do so yet ignoring the people who don't approve.

Its disingenuous.

From what it looks like they were planning on building it no matter what the response. So whats the point of asking if they are simply going to ignore any response that disagrees with the decision they have already made?
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It's not the speed that kills, its the sudden stop

[SciFiFisher]

[SciFiFisher]

[jlj]

[gethen]

I hope no one has the impression that I'm in favor of building the mosque. I honestly don't have a strong opinion either way. I understand that some people feel that a mosque close to ground zero is an insult to those who died there on 9/11. What I don't understand is that no one has complained about either the porn shops, bars, or an earlier mosque in the same neighborhood. I say this because it seems that the argument that the area is "sacred ground" doesn't work very well if it's already being used for these purposes.

The proposed mosque (or community center) is not, in fact, on the land of Ground Zero. The location is an already existing building in the general area of Ground Zero. So I was asking why those opposed to the mosque felt that spot was different from the spots occupied by the porn shops or bars or other mosque. Do the opponents of the mosque feel that by bringing the proposal to the community the builders were deliberately baiting them?

In other words, is the Ground Zero neighborhood a defined area? Is a mosque there bad simply because it's being built by people of the same religion as those who bombed the WTC? Because the existing mosque in the neighborhood does not seem to have generated the same controversy. Is it that the builders are perceived as having taken an in-your-face attitude?
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God's away on business. Tom Waits

[jlj]

[jlj]

And there are images like this one that are scorched forever in peoples' minds. Mine for one.

[Sigma_Orionis]

I had never seen those videos. Wow
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Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

Translation for Evil Imperialists:

"Thus Passes the The Glory of the World"
Phrase used in the ritual for Papal Coronations until 1963.

[Rommie]

[jlj]

[SciFi Chick]

[jlj]

[FZR1KG]

Thats the part that bugs me, the voluntary asking for approval as its a sensitive issue (which they acknowledge) yet dismissal of any disapproval.

Why debate and publicise something that if it is not necessary?
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It's not the speed that kills, its the sudden stop

[gethen]

[jlj]

[SciFiFisher]

Brite and I have debated these issues a bit. A lot of what I have said in this thread is part of that debate. Brite was part of a group of hall monitors on AOL back when they had hall monitors who went into Moslem chat rooms and helped mediate some of the angry backlash. She, of course, has a different view of islam than do I.

Some of what I have posted is not per se my total viewpoint but has been offered as an explanation of why Islamic people are having a hard time selling the American public on Islam as a religion of peace.

So, I am feeling somewhat endorsed when I found this article that states almost exactly what I have been saying and it is from Islamic people.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_ground_zero_mosque_us_muslims
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A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wits and add drama to an otherwise dull day! -Calvin and Hobbes.

“You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.” Winston Churchill

[jlj]

No one would even know about this project, much less be discussing it, if Rudy were still mayor.

"These are the good old days."

[mike alexander]

A problem as I see it is that too many minds are made up, that's all. Like evolution, where opponents ask for transition fossils, knowing full well that each one offered provides a demand for the next transition (Zeno's Fossils).

Reminds me of the soft tension growing up as the adults debated if and when a nigger was going to somehow move into the neighborhood; property values would, of course, immediately plummet, the extent depending on whether they were good niggers who took care of their lawns or bad niggers who let the place go to trash. The prevailing opinion was it would most likely be bad niggers since they were the ones you heard about.

Well, over several decades the mills and factories closed anyway as industry either delayed spending money on modernization or just saw basics like steelmaking move abroad; there was also a shift to a majority black population in the city. The latter obviously caused the former, and thus my hometown was crushed by the ebon tide.

Besides, we need more Muslims, especially to set up restaurants; I can't get a decent shwarma anywhere around here.
_________________
Hitch a ride to the end of the highway
where the neon turns to wood...

[Sigma_Orionis]

The Lebanese Food joint near the office makes GREAT shawarmas

And this Mosque business is looking like International Politics: EVERYBODY is GUILTY
_________________
Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

Translation for Evil Imperialists:

"Thus Passes the The Glory of the World"
Phrase used in the ritual for Papal Coronations until 1963.

[Sigma_Orionis]

And of course, just to make things MORE FUN: Growing number in America believe Obama a Muslim - poll
_________________
Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

Translation for Evil Imperialists:

"Thus Passes the The Glory of the World"
Phrase used in the ritual for Papal Coronations until 1963.

[SciFi Chick]

[mike alexander]

[jlj]

Well, see, you've got it all wrong. As you'd know, if you followed Alex Jones, the man (BHO) is a Manchurian Candidate created and controlled since before his birth by the CIA. AJ has proof and everything. So, the Muslim thing is a just a red herring to distract us all from the fact that he's taking orders from the OWG (that's one world government) folks and is slowly disabling America and quietly imposing martial law via DHS.

This distraction will work, obviously, since Americans will fall for anything.

[SciFi Chick]

[jlj]

[Sigma_Orionis]

Your country has more than 300 Million people. if for the sake of argument we settle on a figure of 25% of them being idiots. That's OVER 75 Million idiots. That's a population of the size of Iran (the 17th most heavily populated country in the world). That's a LOT of idiots.......
_________________
Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

Translation for Evil Imperialists:

"Thus Passes the The Glory of the World"
Phrase used in the ritual for Papal Coronations until 1963.

[jlj]

So it's your theory that USA has a higher percentage of stupid people (as opposed to ill informed people) than the rest of the world. That hurts man. You've hurt my feelings and now I can't finish my Skinwich. Thanks a lot.

[FZR1KG]

Damn, China and India are in deep shit then!
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It's not the speed that kills, its the sudden stop

[Sigma_Orionis]

[Sigma_Orionis]